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 Post subject: Taking A Safety and Communication
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:51 am 
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Brethren
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:52 am
Posts: 341
Okay, I realize tonight (today?) went over badly. Infact, I'm going to be using it as an example, a lot, because I want to make a point. A big point, and one I think we all -kind- of know about, but I want to put it out in the open so we're all clear on just what -did- go wrong tonight.

For the rest of the guild, here's the backstory to the example. Qoz, Darba, Geth, and myself were taking Kul'thran, a good friend of ours, out on a few instance runs. And because we liked those two particular instances (Zul'farrak and Maraudon). It was his first time on either of these instances, whereas the four of us had a lot of prior experience (or, Qoz, Geth, and Darba did.. it was only my third-fourth time in Maraudon.)

A lot of things went wrong that night, but we had one big glaring error.. Lack of communication. Among other things. All that bad stuff that went on? It was -nobody's- fault in particular. What really went wrong was we didn't communicate -as- much to Kul'thran, and since all four of us were so used to grouping together, it just sort of came out as habit the entire two runs, including the disasterous run into Maraudon. We didn't think, ahead of time, to explain to him how we were going to handle it. Basically, we talked amongst ourselves and let him try and sort it out. Bad move on our part, and not very politically or socially savy. Our bad.

What I'm proposing is a few things that could beneficially affect such matters in the future.. The first of which is a tactic used in the Blue Angels, and that's called 'taking a safety'. To wit, after every successful instance we go on together (and let's face it, guys.. We almost -always- do them with at least -one- other Ishnu member present), we have a sit-down afterwards and go over everything that went on. The important part of this, though, is -everyone- mentions something they did wrong. Nobody's perfect, least of all us goof-offs, so there's got to be something we weren't exactly happy with. That's taking a safety. The -reason- behind it is that you acknowledge, and identify, a problem you had, with the full intention to work on it for the next time. It'll help not only improve our methods, since we get a look into what the other people were thinking, but it builds a lot of trust.

The second thing I want to discuss is group communication -before- the actual instance, and during it. When we're with people that haven't done a specific instance before, or have never grouped with us, I think it would be in our best interest to let them know how we're going to do stuff, and -why-. After our first two bad pulls in Zul'farrak, I did a half-assed version of this, but left out a lot of the why. My fault. But, after I (attempted) it, we -did- get better right up until just after the Temple. But -that- was just bad luck, and -nobody's- fault. In fact, I think we all did a -heck- of a nice job that night.

I just think we need to work on a few more things, and try to communicate a bit better. Sorry if this comes off as a rant, but I've been up around 24 hours now, and I can't get any sleep whatsoever.

Voice back with opinions, please!

_________________
"Abbendis is nothing but a harlot, and Admiral Westwind is selling her cheap like he sold us out!" - Stable Master Mercer, under coercion


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:38 am 
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Honored
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Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:15 pm
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Location: Pacific Northwestern Institute of Drunken Belligerence and Jackholery
With regard to the "taking a safety" bit, I'm in agreement with you one hundred percent.

For communication, I will again state that we should all get some form of voip (a microphone, to you non-gearheads). Geth and I found that the increased communication is simply invaluable in instances, and voice-level communication makes picking a target and going a lot easier.

My two cents (Alaskan, exchange rate may vary).

_________________
Ahh, Chainsaw! The Great Communicator!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 8:26 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 5:45 pm
Posts: 499
Location: Hell, SW Branch Office (Southern California)
Taking a safety is an excellent idea. Frankly, since I'm SO far behind folks in levels, it'll likely be a while before I head into instances with large groups, but it'll be nice to see more of what goes on. Also, with new folks coming in now, closer to my level, that may change.

As for voice communication, really, my only issues with Teamspeak or Ventrillo (the two most common apps out there for this sort of thing) is their lack of mac support. They both say that mac versions are in dev, but until I see the product on my hard drive, I'm not holding my breath. The problem then becomes one of running a server.

I HAVE found another app that should work, but will need more testing, but I'm derailing the thread some here. Head over to guild chat and look at the meeting recap where Urg and myself have started chatting about just this very same thing.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:55 am 
A very good wrap up, Ceri. I was going to suggest this in my instance 101 thread, but I have been very discrated and have forgotten that I was going to create such a thread. I'm not sure if you wanted to start it in this thread, but I'll say something that I was very poor at last night, even if you already have.

I was just running the instance is communicated very little to Kul. While I didn't like the thought of him pulling, I really didn't want to ruin his view of what his class is meant to do in instances. This made me very quiet and short. Kul'thran deserved to know what was going on and not just dug through behind us. I guess with everyone getting tired and having the runs kind of slapped together none of us were in the best state of mind. We did pull out the awesome when we make the big mistakes, but in harder instances we wouldn't have made it. I think the fact that we've been there before, added to the fact that many of those times have been with each other made us over-confident. I know my charge on that one shadowcaster triggered that damn basilisk master...*looks ashamed* My over confidence got a few of you killed, though we didn't fully wipe.

Anyway, I'm done now, but I will definately be pointing Kul to this thread. He deserves to read this conversation.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:17 pm 
*jumps in... looks around innocently* Who, me?

*cough* Well I didn't think Zul went so badly from my point-of-view. Though I feel like I missed a ton of the lore since we went through it so quickly. Mauradon... well... we got owned there. I hate those finned dinosaurs, took my rage out on some of their cousins in Un'goro today. :) It wasn't that bad! I loved Zul, I need to finish that one entry for it, I just wish I could solo it so I could take my time and get all the lore. ... and open all the coffins. XD And Geth, I really wasn't pulling very well. My theory behind hunting pulling is it requires a fast bow a low rank Aimed Shot. I was using Rank 1 to pull after the first few pulls, but my bow is a 2.30 speed which is just too slow. If I had Hurricane the weak raw damage would be enough to pull yet not drag the aggro onto me. I need more practice. I also was not using my darn traps like I should have. :P

I don't go to instances often. Never completed Wailing Caverns, never touched Shadowfang Keep, Razorfen Kraul once, Razorfen Downs 0 times, went to Gnomeragon twice, SM twice and Zul and Muaradon once. Haven't even completed Mauradon. So I lack instance experience and wisdom that you all have. Hunters seem to get shafted on this type of wisdom a lot because... we rarely get group invites to instances. Plus, I fear pick-up groups like the Forsaken's plague. I would LOVE to go to instances as often as you all do, that would be fantastic and I really do need some more instance experience as, if you have been reading my entries, the finale of "A Voice of the Shadows" will take place in an instance so I need training, badly. Generally, I don't like instances because of places like the Wailing Caverns and Razorfen Kraul. Those were the most annoying instnaces I've gone to and I HATE them. However, I loved Zul'Farrak and Scarlet Monastery, those WERE fun. I hope Sunken Temple is as fun as those two.

Now, I like Ceri's ideas of pre-instance communication and tactics and then a reflection on how we did in the instance. I might forget a lot of things that happened, but I agree it'd be a good way to see how we're going. Especially good for me since I need to improve my instance tactics. Don't sweat it though, Wednesday night was A LOT of fun. I'd do Zul'Farrak again with you guys in a heartbeat and I would love to take Mauradon on again. *waves*


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 7:19 pm 
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Brethren
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:52 am
Posts: 341
I'm glad you had a good time, at least, Kul. *HUGS!* And I, once again, apologize for how badly we treated you in there. We'll do better next time, I -PROMISE-! And there -will- be a next time. ^_^ If you -ever- need someone to drag along in a dungeon, I'll be more then happy to help you out. And not 'cause I feel like I owe you or anything.. S'cause you're not only a great friend, but a former comrade-in-arms! 'Tis a bond that is deeper than, but not quite like, friendship.

Of course, you're a friend, too, so that helps a lot. ;D

Oh. And.. that offer goes to ALLA ya mugs! I like instances. ^_^ Do -not- hesitate to bug me!

_________________
"Abbendis is nothing but a harlot, and Admiral Westwind is selling her cheap like he sold us out!" - Stable Master Mercer, under coercion


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 8:47 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:05 am
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If you want random practice in instances (goodness knows I need more of it, too), we could twoman or threeman through the lower ones? (I need to get my hands on a tank who's willing to sit back and let us play with blind pulling and hunterpull-warriorcharge tactics in easy instances, nobody's patient enough for it...)

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... or die trying?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2005 2:12 pm 
Err... why twoman or threemaning it? We should have practice with FULL parties. >.>; Warriors and hunters are not the only classes that go to instances. I'd rather do full party practicing.

*hugs Ceridwyn* You treated me badly? ... if that was bad I want to see what GOOD treatment is then. XD *imagines being worshipped, fed and getting to be Master Looter to keep all nice drops.* :P You really didn't treat me that badly.


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